Dr. Ambedkar As The Member
of Executive Governor General Council
Questions and Answers
______________________________________________
232
[f.1]
The Indian Trade Unions (Amendment) Bill
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar (Labour Member) : I do not propose to make the motion that
stands in my name.
233
[f.2]
Delhi Electric Supply and Traction Company
419.
Mr. K. C. Neogy: (a) Will the Honourable the Labour Member be pleased to state whether it
is a fact that the Delhi Electric Supply and Traction Company Limited, is a company
incorporated outside India ? How long has this Company been operating in the Delhi
Province and what is the area served by it ?
(b)
How many units of electricity did this Company use for traction purposes, how many units
did it sell to consumers in its area of supply during the past twelve months or so, how
many units out of its total supply did it generate from its own power station, and how
many units did the Company buy from the Delhi Central Electric Power Authority Limited ?
(c)
Is it a fact that the Delhi Electric Supply and Traction Company Limited has not increased
the supply of current from its generating station to any considerable extent for a number
of years, and has been for some time, for all practical purposes, dependent upon the
Government power station at present under the control of the Delhi Central Electric Power
Authority Limited ?
(d)
Is it a fact that the Delhi Central Electric Power Authority Limited is a company
sponsored by Government and works on a no-profit basis ?
(e)
What is the price that the Delhi Electric Supply and Traction Company Limited pays per
unit of electricity supplied by the Delhi Central Electric Power Authority Limited, and
what are the different rates at which the Delhi Electric Supply and Traction Company
Limited sells electricity to its different classes of customers ?
(f)
Is it a fact that the Government have an option to purchase the Delhi Electric Supply and
Traction Company Limited in February, 1947, when their present licence expires, provided a
notice is served on the Company in February 1945 ? If so, has the question of exercising
the option been considered as yet, and with what result ?
(g)What is the amount that the Government will
have to pay in case they decide to purchase this undertaking, and to what extent will the
purchase enable the Government to utilise the sterling balance held to the credit of India
in England ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R.
Ambedkar : (a) Yes. The Company's licence runs from the 2nd March 1905: The area of supply
now includes;
(i)
the whole of the area in the jurisdiction of the Delhi Municipal Committee;
(ii)
the whole of the Delhi Civil Station Notified Area; (iii) the whole of the West Delhi
Notified Area; and (iv) a tract of land in the jurisdiction of the Delhi District Board.
(b) During war-time it is not in the public interest to supply the information.
(c)
Yes. The Company's generating plant is now used more or less as a stand-by.
(d)
Yes.
(e)
A statement is laid on the table.
(f)
Yes. The question is now under the consideration of the Chief Commissioner, Delhi.
(g)
Under the first proviso to sub-section (1) of section 7 of the Indian Electricity Act,
1910, the price to be paid for the property of the licence, if the option of purchasing
were exercised, would be its fair market value at the time of purchase of determined by
arbitration. It is not possible to answer the second half of the question till the amount
likely to be involved is known.
STATEMENT
The
Delhi Electric Supply and Traction Co. Ltd., are charged at 69 anna per unit of
electricity supplied in bulk by the Delhi Central Electric Power Authority Limited.
Rates
charged by the Delhi Electric Supply and Traction Co. Ltd. Lighting and fans—Three
annas per unit less 3 pies discount per unit for prompt payment of bills.
Domestic
power, (Cooling, water heating, refrigerators, radiators and air conditioning)—One
anna per unit nett.
Battery
charging—Two annas per unit less ten per cent discount for prompt payment of bills.
Industrial—
A
Consumer with connected load up to 75 K.V.A. Restricted hour supply—I.I anna per unit
less a discount of .1 anna per unit for prompt payment of bills.
Unrestricted
hour supply—Rates as for Restricted hour supply and in addition a charge of Rs. 5 per
H. P. per month less ten per cent discount for prompt payment of bills. Special rates are
quoted.
Mr.
K. C. Neogy : Is the Honourable Member aware that a few years ago, the Delhi Municipal
Committee applied for a licence for the purpose of enabling itself to supply electricity
in the area concerned or at least part of it and that as a result of that application, an
enquiry was held into the position of this company by a Committee over which perhaps Sir
James Pitkcathly presided or the Electrical Adviser to the Government of Bengal, presided
? Is the Honourable Member in a position to give this House an idea about the comments
made by this Committee or these individuals, in regard to the affairs of this company ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar :
If the Honourable Member will put down a specific question, I shall certainly be glad to
give the information.
Mr.
K. C. Neogy : Has the Honourable Member tried to ascertain the total amount of profits
earned by this Company ? Has the attention of the Honourable Member been drawn to a
statement in a recent article in the Hindustan Times in which it has been stated that the
total profits earned by the company was already about five times its capital ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Yes, Sir, I
have noticed.
Mr. K. C. Neogy : Is the Honourable Member in a
position to say whether that is a fact or not ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar :
I cannot say anything about that now. If the Honourable Member wants information, he will
give notice of a question.
Mr.
K. C. Neogy: With reference to part (b) May I know the proportion of units actually
produced by this company to the units purchased by the company at cost price from the
Government undertakings ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I
have already answered that during war time, it is not in the public interest to give the
information.
Mr. K. C. Neogy : I know. Is the Honourable Member in
a position to deny that it is a very small proportion of the units actually distributed by
this company that is produced by it ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar
: That, I am afraid, will be circumventing the provisions of the Act which prohibits me
from giving the information.
Mr.
K. C.
Neogy : I did not know that the Honourable Member was prevented even from giving the
proportion. However, I give up that point. As regards the point that the matter is under
consideration of the Chief Commissioner having regard to the important policy involved do
Government propose to direct the Chief Commissioner in regard to coming to any particular
conclusion, or do the Government of India merely propose to carry out, or rather endorse,
the decision of the Chief Commissioner in this behalf?
The
Honourable Dr. .B. R. Ambedkar :
The Government of India themselves are considering this matter.
Mr.
K. C. Neogy: With regard to part (f), having regard to the shortness of lime during which
notice is to be served, if at all, will the Government come to a very quick decision in
the matter ? Will the Government be pleased to take this House into their confidence at
the earliest possible opportunity in regard to this case ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar:
I can assure my Honourable friend that Government will certainly come to its own
conclusions before the time expires.
Mr.
K. C. Neogy : Having regard to the fact that this Legislature is virtually in the position
of a Provincial Legislature so far as Delhi Province is concerned, does the Honourable
Member propose to let this House have an opportunity to consider and discuss this matter ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I
shall bear the Honourable Member's suggestion in mind.
Mr. R. R. Gupta: Do the Government propose to
increase the capacity of the electric power house situated in New Delhi under the
Government control ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar:
That question does not arise. I cannot give an answer.
234
[f.3]
Refusal of Facilities to All-India Womens
Conference for Studying the Condition of Women in Coal Mines
579.
Mrs. Renuka Ray : Will the Honourable the
Labour Member
please
state:
(a)
if it is a fact that the All-India Women's Conference approached the Government for
facilities to send an investigation Committee for an impartial studying of women in coal
mines and that on the 3rd May, the Government of India informed the aforesaid organisation
that there was no objection against such investigation, and the time was not suitable at
present; and
(b)
if it is a fact that subsequently on a request from the All-India Women's Conference on
the 26th May, the Government of India again refused the facilities and informed them that
Government would let them know when the lime was suitable and that upto now the All-India
Women's Conference has not heard from the Government; what the causes are which led to
this course of action ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar:
(a) Yes.
(b)
the reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The reasons were
explained in the Government of India's letters to the President of the Conference.
Mr.
K. C. Neogy: May I know the reasons which led the Government to pass the order referred to
in part (b) ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : The time was not suitable.
Mr.
N. M. Joshi : What does the Government mean by saying that the time was not suitable ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar
: I think the word ' suitable ' is a very
simple word. Everybody can understand it. I do not think I can further simplify it.
Mrs.
Renuka Ray : Is it a fact that the Government allowed the Regge and the Health Survey
Committees to go and investigate during the same period ? Is it a fact that the All-India
Women's organisation has not been given similar permission till now ? If so, what is the
basis for such differentiation ? Why is it that a responsible body like the All-India
Women's organisation who are interested in the welfare of women has not been allowed ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar :
They are official bodies which were allowed.
Mrs. Renuka Ray : Are not the Members of the
Legislature on that Committee?
Mr. President (The Honourable Sir Abdul Rahim) : The
Honourable Member is arguing.
Mr.
T. S. Avinashilingam Chettiar : Why are women stopped from going into the mines and
investigating? Why should Government consider that the time is not suitable only in the
case of Women's organisation ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar :
The Honourable Member can draw his own inference.
Mr.
N. M. Joshi : May I ask whether it is not a fact that Government do not consider the time
suitable because the conditions in the mines are so bad that they do not like
investigation being made by an impartial body ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar :
The Honourable Member is at liberty to draw his own inferences.
Mr. President (The Honourable Sir Abdul Rahim) : Next
question.
235
[f.4]
Shortage of Labour in Coal Mines due to Malaria
580.
Mrs. Renuka Ray : Will the Honourable the
Labour Member please stale:
(a)
if it is a fact that the shortage of labour in coal mines, particularly during the months
of August and September was due to a large proportion of mining labour suffering from
malaria and that no adequate treatment was possible due to the inadequate supply of
quinine; and
(b) if the Honourable Member is aware of the fact
that mining labour is suffering so acutely from the effects of diseases and malnutrition
that this has seriously affected their efficiency; if so, what steps taken to remedy this
are ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : (a) The
coal-mining labour is not immune to the seasonal incidence of malaria, but it is not
correct to say that a large proportion of this labour suffered from the disease during
August and September. The incidence of the disease per thousand of the average daily
labour force employed in the Jharia Coalfield was 81 and 80 for the month of August in
1943 and 1944 respectively and III and 74 for the month of September in 1943 and 1944
respectively. Every effort is made to provide adequate facilities for treatment and
sufficient supplies of quinine and its substitutes.
(b)
It cannot be said that mining labour is suffering acutely from malnutrition. As regards
their health all collieries employing 30 persons or more are required to maintain a
dispensary and distribute medicines through their doctors. Coal Mines Labour Welfare Fund
has recently been set up from which measures for prevention of disease in the mining
population and improvement of medical facilities will be financed.
Mr.
K. C. Neogy : With regard to the point about malnutrition, will the Honourable Member
please make a statement as to whether it is not a fact and an admitted fact that apart
from the shortage of labour in collieries, individual output of work has gone down due to
malnutrition ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I
am not certain about the facts mentioned by my Honourable friend.
Mr.
K. C. Neogy : Will the Honourable Member make an enquiry from the Honourable the Supply
Member, who, I understand made a statement to this effect on a recent occasion when he met
one of the Chambers of Commerce.
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar :
There is no need for an enquiry as the Honourable Member seems to be in possession of the
fact.
Mr.
K. C. Neogy : Will the Honourable Member convince himself about the truth of this position
?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar :
Yes, I know there has been some fall in production, but I understood it was entirely due
to the fact that there was lack of machinery.
Mrs.
Renuka Ray : As the Honourable Member has told us about dispensaries in the different
mines, will he kindly investigate and find out what the medical facilities are and how far
the dispensaries are working and giving medicines in the mines at Ranigunj and Jharia ? My
information is that some of them cannot work because there are not enough medicines.
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar :
As I said, it was because in the opinion of
Government the facilities were not sufficient that Government established the coal Mines
Labour Welfare Fund.
236
[f.5]
Cases
of Employment of Children on Underground Work in Mines
581.
Mrs. Renuka Ray : Will the Honourable the Labour Member please state:
(a)
if he is aware of the fact that there are a growing number of cases of violation of the
Act prohibiting children in underground work in mines ?
(b)
if the answer is in the affirmative, what the steps taken to ensure the enforcement of the
Act are; and
(c)
if the answer is in the negative, will the Honourable Member kindly investigate the matter
and take effective steps to put a stop to any such illegal practice that may prevail ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar:
(a) No. (b) Does not arise.
(c)
Inspections are regularly made by the Officers of the Department of Mines to enforce the
provisions of the Indian Mines Act regarding the prohibition of employment of children in
mines and effective steps will be taken as a mailer of course if any such illegal practice
prevails anywhere.
Mrs. Renuka Ray : Is the Honourable Member aware that
there is a growing number of cases of violation in some of the mines in Jharia and
Ranigunj coalfields and that children of 14 and 15 are signed up as adults and actually go
down the mines ? And what does the Honourable Member propose to do about it?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : If the Honourable Member has any specific cases having
reference to specific mines and will bring them to my notice, I will certainly take the
matter up.
237
[f.6]
Underground Work in Mines by Pregnant Women
582.
Mrs. Renuka Ray : Will the Honourable the Labour Member please state:
(a)
if he is aware of the fact that pregnant women usually work underground in mines until the
ninth month and again a fortnight after child birth, and that in mines where maternity
benefits are not given they work even longer ?
(b)
the steps Government have taken to stop pregnant women from working underground;
(c)
if it is a fact that there have been a certain number of accidents to women working
underground within the last year and there is no way of ascertaining how many of these
accidents have occurred to pregnant women; and
(d)
if it is a fact that maternity benefits are given only in some mines; what steps
Government intend to lake to make maternity benefits compulsory for all women working in
mining areas ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : (a) I am not aware of the basis for this allegation. Under
section 3 of the Mines Maternity Benefit Act, employment of a woman for a period of four
weeks following her confinement is prohibited. Further a woman is entitled to leave of
absence for a period of one month before she expects to be delivered of a child.
Inspections under this Act are regularly made by the Labour Inspectors under the Chief
Inspector of Mines, ail of whom are doctors, with a view to enforcing the provisions of
the Act and the rules made thereunder.
(b)
As already stated, pregnant women are entitled to leave of absence for a period of one
month before the date of delivery; and the object of the employment of Labour Inspectors
under the Chief Inspector of Mines is to make known to these women their rights under the
Act and to assist them in securing the benefits of that Act.
(c)
Yes, but no information of any of these women being pregnant has been received. During
enquiries following accidents, the evidence of the colliery doctor is invariably recorded
and if a woman were pregnant her condition would be disclosed and recorded.
(d)
The Mines Maternity Benefit Act 1941 applies to all mines in British India except:
(i)
certain stone crushing plants forming part of mines in the province of Bombay;
(ii)
iron ore mines worked without mechanical power, the whole of the ore from which is
supplied totally to village smelters and blacksmiths; and
(iii)
those mines in which excavation is being carried out for prospecting purposes only,
provided not more than 20 persons are employed in or about such excavation and subject to
certain other conditions.
It
is not considered necessary to make maternity benefits compulsory in these small mines.
Mr.
Lalchand Navalrai : Have there actually been any cases of pregnant women having suffered ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar :
Yes, there have been some. Mr. Lalchand
Navalrai : When ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar :
Since they started working. These accidents are often occurring in the coal mines.
Mrs. Renuka Ray: Will the Honourable Member tell us
whether the best way of preventing pregnant women from going down the mines would not be
to restore the ban on women working underground ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : I
entirely agree, provided the circumstances were propitious.
238
[f.7]
Restoration of Ban on Women Working Underground in Coal Mines
583.
Mrs. Renuka Ray : Will the Honourable the Labour Member please state:
(a)
when the Government of India intend to restore the ban on women working underground in
coal mines in view of their former promise; and
(b)
how far the employment of women underground has increased coal raisings?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar :
(a) The Government are most anxious to re-impose the ban as soon as production of coal
reaches a figure which makes possible such re-imposition.
(b)
Coal raisings have increased appreciably as a result of the employment of women
underground, but no exact figures can be given as other factors are in operation at the
same time.
Mrs.
Renuka Ray : Is the Honourable Member aware that a very infinitesimal proportion
represents the increased raisings helped by women working underground and does he consider
that the violation of an international code and moral convention is compensated by the
increased raisings that is due to women working in the mines even from the point of view
increased production ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar :
My information is to the contrary.
Mr.
Govind V. Deshmukh:
May I know what is the target of production aimed at by Government in order to restore
this ban ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I
am unable to say.
Mrs. Renuka Ray: Is the Honourable Member aware that
the woman acts as loader underground and the man as cutter, and so the rate of progress of
each tub is much slower because a woman cannot act as cutter, and the result is that the
man has to rest, whereas the rate would be much faster......
Mr. President (The Honourable Sir Abdul Rahim) : The
Honourable Member is making a speech.
Mrs.
Renuka Ray :
I should like to know if the Labour Member does not consider that the rate of progress of
the work per tub is much slower because women work as loaders and cannot work as cutters.
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I am glad to have that information, but I am passing no
opinion either on the reliability of the statement or the feasibility of the suggestion.
239
[f.8]
Post of Labour Welfare Officer for Government of India Presses
586. Maulvi Muhammad Abdul Ghani : Will the Honourable
the Labour Member be pleased to state :
(a) whether
the post of Labour Welfare Officer for the Government of India presses was advertised; if
so, when and how;
(b) whether
any selection has been made;
(c) whether
it is a fact that the post was reserved for a Muslim;
(d)
the number of persons who have been appointed as Assistant Labour Welfare Officers during
the last two years; and
(e)
what their academic qualifications are and how many of them are Muslims ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar :
(a) One posts of Labour Welfare Officer for the Government of India Presses has been
sanctioned and it was advertised by the Federal Public Service Commission in the approved
newspapers in June last. Applications were due to reach the office of the Commission by
the 10th July;
(b)
and (c) Yes.
(d) One
lady Assistant Welfare Adviser was appointed directly under Labour Department.
(e)
She is M.A., M. Lilt., and is a Hindu.
Prof.
N. G. Ranga: Are these officers appointed for the Central Government Presses or also for
the Provincial Government Presses ?
The
Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar
: For the Central Government Presses.
240
[f.9]
Statistics re Private Newspaper Owners and Their
Employees
600.
Mr. Kailash Bihari Lall : Will the Honourable Member for Labour be pleased to state :
(a)
if the Government have obtained any statistics about the number of private newspaper
owners and the persons employed by them; and
(b) if the answer to (a) be in the negative, do the Government propose to obtain the statistics with a view to afford relief to such employees with regard to (i) rules of leave, (ii) list of holidays, (iii) grades of salaries and (iv) dearn